Are You Damaging Yourself with Guilt and Shame? - S03E02 Artwork

The Hey Let Me Ask You Something Podcast

Join Kristin Wood, LCSW (an honest-to-goodness licensed therapist) and Ralph Andracchio, CEG, PPC (an honest-to-goodness trained mindset coach) as they dig into common questions and talk to interesting guests to help listeners break free of toxic thought patterns, cultivate their curiosity, learn some self-love, and have more interesting conversations.

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The Hey Let Me Ask You Something Podcast

Are You Damaging Yourself with Guilt and Shame? - S03E02

January 13, 2022 • Ralph Andracchio & Kristin Wood • Season 3 • Episode 2

On this episode, Kristin and Ralph unknowingly wear the same shirt and bond over talking about guilt and shame, the definition, why people feel it, if they are biological or learned, the point of making someone feel guilty or ashamed, how to break unhealthy thought patterns around them, and being the most unfocused show on the internet.

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DISCLAIMER:
The views expressed on the Hey Let Me Ask You Something Podcast are solely the opinions of your hosts Kristin Wood and Ralph Andracchio and are based on their years of practical and clinical experience. These opinions do not constitute any kind of advice, diagnosis, or treatment of any mental, physical, or emotional issues. If you are having an emergency or any serious ongoing situations please contact your local hospital or a trusted professional.

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The Rotten Treasure Podcast

The Hey Let Me Ask You Something Podcast
Season 03
Episode 02
Are You Damaging Yourself with Guilt and Shame?

[MUSIC INTRO PLAYS] - 00:00

Intro Voiceover - 00:08
You’ve found the only podcast with the worst superpowers ever…Hey Let Me Ask You Something.

And as always the views expressed on the Hey Let Me Ask You Something Podcast are solely the opinions of your hosts Kristin Wood and Ralph Andracchio and are based on their years of practical and clinical experience. These opinions do not constitute any kind of advice, diagnosis, or treatment of any mental, physical, or emotional issues. If you are having an emergency or any serious ongoing situations please contact your local hospital or a trusted professional. You can find this complete disclaimer on our podcast homepage. And now… on with the show!

Ralph Andracchio - 01:28
Pre check

Kristin Wood - 01:33
We're just checking both of us we're here.

Ralph Andracchio - 01:37
Physically, emotionally, spiritually. We're here.

Kristin Wood - 01:41
Yeah. And we're in the same room today.

Ralph Andracchio - 01:42
We're in the same room today. Finally. Well we were in the same Oh no. People - we were just we just did a guest spot on a friend of ours. podcast show. Called Rotten Treasure. We will tell you more about that. I'll put the link in the show notes. We were guest on a podcast about really terrible movies. We had a blast. It's going to come out in February.

Kristin Wood - 02:08
It was funny and fun

Ralph Andracchio - 02:09
It was a lot of fun. So stay tuned for that. But that was the last time we were in the same room together. That was in December.

Kristin Wood - 02:14
Yeah. And then we went on our holiday and then...

Ralph Andracchio - 02:18
You make it sound so fancy, we went on a holiday. We did not go to the Swiss Alps.

Kristin Wood - 02:22
I didn't go anywhere. Um, we took a break for the holidays. And then when we were about to come back on for our first episode, I got COVID So we had to do their do it remotely. Which I was fine, but I didn't love it as much as being right here.

Ralph Andracchio - 02:42
It's missing something.

Kristin Wood - 02;44
Yeah. And I feel like it was like our like, yeah, it was missing something.

Ralph Andracchio - 02:48
It was missing. Yeah. Yeah, it wasn't. It's missing wine and proximity.

Kristin Wood - 02:53
Yes. I think we do our best work in the same room, right?

Ralph Andracchio - 02:58
Yeah, we can feed off each other person. Oh, absolutely. So last week, was all about resolutions. And I think people are tired of hearing about resolutions.

Kristin Wood - 03:14
We've now surmised that...

Ralph Andracchio - 03:15
We have surmised that people are tired of hearing about resolutions. But one thing - I forgot to turn the light on there we go. We're all bright shining for the video. Now. I forgot to turn on another one of the lights. But I think as a follow up an interesting follow up to resolutions is a question of guilt. Feeling guilt. And I felt that would be a good thing to talk about today a question of why do we always feel so guilty as I can only speak for myself but I find a lot of times I'm feeling guilty about a lot of stuff. And I it makes me think of the question like Why Why do we feel so guilty all the time about certain things. Where does the guilt come from? Why are we such a guilty species? I mean, we were talking about guilty pleasures and like guilt, it's, it's like woven into the fabric of our being. And I'm like, what? Why? What's the deal with guilt?

Kristin Wood - 04:29
I don't know. I mean, I've been thinking about this and I don't know but what comes to mind for me is and it might just be because of I don't know who's in my life and who I work with in my in my profession, but there's just so many people that are perfectionists and struggle with being selfish, you know, everything's about everybody else. So I got to keep everybody happy. I've got to do everything perfectly. And if I make a mistake, it's all so punishment just seems to be again, it might be my line of work and who I've had these conversations with, but it just seems like a lot of people are very quick to put a lot on themselves when things don't go the way they had anticipated.

Ralph Andracchio - 05:18
Yeah, I hear all that I tick all those boxes in my myself. I looked up the definition of guilt The dictionary definition. Before I did a little bit of homework you know, I'm slipping into my old production assistant mode when I used to live in LA but the dictionary definition of guilt is a feeling of responsibility or remorse for some offense crime wrong etc. whether real or imagined. And from that I get offence crime wrong. It's all these negative like serious. Like you need to be in jail.

Kristin Wood - 06:00
If you're in jail maybe you should feel guilty. I don't know.

Ralph Andracchio - 06:02
But I think what we're talking about is that pervasive kind of low level behind the scenes guilt of like, Oh, I didn't do this thing or I feel like I let somebody down or I let myself down. And I think it's it's good. I'm a word guy and I love like digging into the words people use and why they use them and the definition of the words like the connotation and denotation and all that so I like starting at the beginning of like, alright, what does guilt actually mean? And guilt is like you did something seriously wrong to somebody you committed some kind of bad offense against somebody that you need to feel sorry for, you know, or remorseful for and that's like yes, in certain situations totally warranted. But I think what we're talking about is like, the little day to day things that where guilt really doesn't fit.

Kristin Wood - 07:02
Well, the definition says perceived,

Ralph Andracchio - 07:04
Right. Rather real or perceived.

Kristin Wood - 07:06
That's a lot of what we're, what we're talking about that you're talking about you done I've done it's probably more leaning on the perceived side than the actual reality of an offense or whatever the strong words were in there. Yeah, guilt, feeling guilty, just like any other feeling isn't right or wrong because feelings are not right or wrong. Good point. sided to play therapist. It's not wrong. It's not a wrong thing to eat. You can't always help what you feel. But it's about what not feeling comes up if it is a perceived wrongdoing, or not being perfect or whatever. It's what we didn't do with it. You know, how do we cope with it? How do we hopefully talk ourselves through it? How do we move forward? Because it can it can make us stuck?

Ralph Andracchio - 07:54
Yeah. Where do you think it comes from? Because I feel like for I can only speak for for myself in my experience in my life, but I feel like I was raised. I don't feel like I was raised. I was raised. Roman Catholic and Catholicism for anybody who doesn't know is very guilty religion. Really guilty as charged religion, you know, it's it's, you, you, you rack up. It's like this weird pyramid scheme in some way. We like rack up all these guilt points during the course of the week. and then you go to confession and you're all better to get out of jail free card, your all better wipes the slate clean. You do a few Hail Marys and then you rack up guilt points again the next day. It's like I was going to Subway like here for my free sub. Right? Yeah. So I feel like that. I can't again, I can only speak for myself. I can't speak for all organized religions, but I feel like that has a lot to do with the two of like, how you are raised and what how life is and guilt are kind of framed within you know what I mean?

Kristin Wood - 09:05
Yeah, Oh, I was raised the same way 12 years all girl Catholic school

Ralph Andracchio - 09:09
All girl Catholic High School? Oh, no, like grade school and high school. Was it all one?

Kristin Wood - 09:15
No, I went to two different schools but it was all girls the whole way through.

Ralph Andracchio - 09:20
Wow. So that's a whole other episode. How do you feel like that?

Kristin Wood - 09:25
Well we won't get into all that personal stuff. Yeah, I don't know about all that. No, there was goods and Bad's to it, but I you know, and I don't want to offend anyone. That's Roman Catholic because I was raised that way as well. But it definitely did create a lot of that because it was like, it almost felt like you should be really, like scared and feel really, really bad if you did something wrong. And I don't mean to think if you believe in Jesus, not to go off topic here but if you don't believe in Jesus, that's not even what they teach. He was he's all forgiving. But it was like as a child first of all, it's a lot to understand as a very small child. And then you know, we do something wrong and you're like bad and if you don't go to confession, you're going to hell and all that kind of stuff. But I also think you're right when you said about the way you were raised, because it's also about perhaps how your parents reacted or treated you when you did do something wrong. Where you shamed.

Ralph Andracchio - 10:30
Guilt and shame.

Kristin Wood - 10:31
I was thinking this when we're talking before we started that shame popped up in my head actually, when we were talking, I just didn't say I don't know why. But yeah, if you were ashamed if you were guilted, which is probably in your definition. Then that that sticks with you.

Ralph Andracchio - 10:48
Yeah, guilt and shame are like the Bonnie and Clyde of emotions for everybody and I thank you for bringing up shame because that's like it they both are used speaking of religion, and again this is my

Kristin Wood - 11:07
We have lost, every religious listener right now. They all tuned right on out.

Ralph Andracchio - 11:11
All the Roman Catholics have tuned out. It's fine, that's fine. I take prayers. I also take Visa and MasterCard, guilt and shame are used in some contexts to keep people in line. There, they're more of a punitive framework or like guardrails for people, especially when it comes to like following a specific doctrine and you can actually, you can expand that to anything like any kind of of diet program or exercise program, any kind of self improvement thing where it's like, if you look hard enough, there's some guilt and some shame in there somewhere.

Kristin Wood - 11:57
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I'm sorry. I'm going off topic for a minute. We didn't say out loud and mention the fact that we're both wearing flannels.

Ralph Andracchio - 12:05
Oh, yeah. People who are watching us on YouTube

Kristin Wood - 12:09
I was like, we're kind of dressed the same today. Check us out on YouTube if you care, anyway I din't mean to digress

Ralph Andracchio - 12:16
No, it's okay. i We are looking good today. I think

Kristin Wood - 12:19
We're in our warm...

Ralph Andracchio - 12:22
I always have this. This is like one of my shirts I always return to because it's like it's soft. It's comfortable.

Kristin Wood - 12:28
Yeah, I like the buttons. And I like the double pockets situation. I've always been a fan of that.
I don't have any - oh I have one pocket.

Ralph Andracchio - 12:36
I never like if you're gonna put one put the other one why leave that one. I don't know.

Kristin Wood - 12:41
It might feel guilty because it's their in place of a different pocket. Anyway, I really got us off the tracks.

Ralph Andracchio - 12:48
No, no, it's fine. I like it. Yeah, guilt and shame. are used to keep people in line more than anything, by by religious organizations by diet and exercise programs. It's a really good way. Really good. inexpensive way, because it costs no money. Right? It's free. Yeah, well, monetarily, it's free.

Kristin Wood - 13:23
I just had a really weird question. I don't want to cut you off.

Ralph Andracchio - 13:26
No, please. Ask.

Kristin Wood - 13:28
I was just wondering. Is guilt a taught feeling? I don't, I don't even know where I'm going with this. It just popped up and I was like, Wait a minute. If you never experienced it or weren't shamed or guilted Would you feel guilty ever? Like is a taught almost Oh, I don't know the answer to this just you know, I just thought about it.

Ralph Andracchio - 13:58
I don't know the answer either. But let's let's talk it out. Like we were just doing by before the episode started. We were doing dream interpretation. Oh, yeah. And neither of us are right. No, I thought I thought we did good. But none of us knew that situation was interesting. Neither of us are dream interpreters. But we did a good job of just talking through it does wonders is guilt learned? If there's anybody listening who knows the answer to that question is a not a biologist but a I don't know. Anthropologist or I don't know something. I don't know. anybody listening who may know the answer who doesn't need to Google it? Let us know. But let's talk through it is guilt taught. I would say here's my my two cents. I think people have an innate sense of right and wrong. And I think people are born with an innate sense of empathy towards other people and towards anything really. And I feel like if we hurt somebody else or something else, like an animal or a pet or something, I think there's a there's a natural, biological, biological tinge of oooh I feel bad about that kind of thing. But I think guilt is a very, very constructed new, homosapien thing where we kind of took that natural feeling and put these these like boundaries on it and said, No, it's this thing and it's very bad. And then it goes to what back to what you said is that feelings aren't bad for good or bad. They just are.

Kristin Wood - 15:58
Where I went in my head was thinking about a child. You know, children develop empathy. I don't I should refresh myself on the developmental stages right now, but I'm not remembering like when different things develop, but let's just say it's around three, four, where they they start to understand empathy, they start to feel empathy their world sort of starts just don't be all just so much around them. But I was thinking about that, and then I was thinking the way in which adults around them react to their bad air quotes. Behavior is a big indicator as to whether they're going to develop feelings of guilt and shame, or whether or not the other feeling would be like, for instance, I on a child thing for a second but if you have a child, and they are they do something wrong, and you are attacked or criticizing or coming at them about who they are like you're a bad boy, you're really bad and bad boys are this and bad boys are that bad girls are this and bad boys are that

Ralph Andracchio - 17:06
Bad Boys for Life! Sorry. Sorry,

Kristin Wood - 17:12
I'm not saying it the best way but I think that versus what you did was a bad thing. That's a very different message to a child.

Ralph Andracchio - 17:22
Oh, like you are not your actions.

Kristin Wood - 17:26
Yeah. Doesn't mean that somebody wouldn't feel feel badly about actions but when you make it inherently about them being that I don't know if I'm on a if this is making sense. Yes. Okay, then. I think I say that every week but I'm thinking I'm just thinking out loud. So sometimes I'm like, does that make any sense? Yeah, I think that that's the part where it's taught a little bit there.

Ralph Andracchio - 17:56
Yeah, no, I like I like where your head's at with parents, seeing their kid do something. And it's a lot of them putting their insecurities onto kids. And I I I liken this back to having a kid that is LGBTQ you know? A lot of times kids will start growing and exploring and like, maybe they'll wear something their parents don't agree with, or they'll talk to somebody that or you know, they'll look something up on the internet and instead of, instead of saying, being curious, approaching it from a state of curiosity and saying, oh, you know, is that something you're interested in? Is that something you'd like to wear and in saying, you know, self expression, you know, it's okay. Putting their own belief system on it and then immediately framing it in terms of guilt or shame of like, you can't wear that that's bad. You are now bad because you're that you don't want to be a bad person, do you? Well, then you can't wear that anymore. And you can't think that way. And you can't look that up on the internet. You can't talk to those people, because that will make you a bad person.

Kristin Wood - 19:03
Yeah, I agree. I mean, I don't it's I'm still on the fence as to whether it's top feeling, but I think that there's some people that come so quickly to the guilt and shame quick all the time. Any little thing we do guilt, shame, guilt, shame. And I think that does probably speak a lot to how we were raised. Unfortunately, well intentioned parents I'm sure didn't necessarily but that stuff sticks with kids like that's yeah, they internalize it. They were saying, and that's why I have done some parenting work. And I've always said like, you separate the behavior from the child like, it's not the child. It's the behavior this bad.

Ralph Andracchio - 19:48
Right and framing it in a way of, you know, let's look at that from an objective point of view. It's, it's something that you did, why did you do it? How can we do better next time? It doesn't say anything about you, and there's always going to be an exception to the rule. We're not talking about like serial killers or anything. There's just inherent like, there's something wrong at a base level there. It's just like average kids doing things and it's like, I think as a society, we just need to get better at framing things in a less guilt slash shame lens because I think that's the first thing we go to because again, like I said, it's easy it's free and keeps people in line to their to their detriment. It causes damage.

Kristin Wood - 20:39
Yeah, it's less work like to be honest.

Ralph Andracchio - 20:42
And I'm not in that category. And I'm not a parent. I mean, either. So I am a favorite uncle, though. I do have some nieces and nephews. And, you know, I get it. Parenting is hard. And I'm not I'm not digging, you know, on anybody who is trying their best that parenting and raising kids especially right now. My god, yeah. The way the world is right now. Good. You know, you deserve all the money in the world. But it is something to think about in terms of stopping cycles of thought that we have as a society that we've just, we've just kind of, I don't know if given up is the right word, but like, we've kind of settled on it's like, oh, it's just the way it is.

Kristin Wood - 21:30
Yeah. And again, I think even a parent that would react that way that you know, Oh, you did about your bad or whatever, you know, they're well intentioned. I mean, that they're trying to teach a child right from wrong. That's what that's the intent. You know, the reason we're talking about children so much, at least from my perspective, is because I think a lot of this quick to shame quick to guilt comes from childhood, unfortunately. And, you know, I would probably say this is just a guess off this I have no research behind what about say, but I always believe that 99% of parents do their best and try their best and are intending to hurt their children. And so I think even when stuff like this has happened, it's been the intent has been on the best interest of the child of teaching them something of, you know, and unfortunately, the way that children internalize some of these messages is doesn't go that way exactly.

Ralph Andracchio - 22:22
And something you said on a previous episode, I believe it was handled, how to handle the holidays. Maybe the last episode. No, it wasn't the last. Anyway

Kristin Wood - 22:32
It was episode I think of last season last season.

Ralph Andracchio - 22:37
Yeah, go look it up. How do I handle stress on holidays or something like that? You brought up a great point of parents are their own people. You know, they're just not parents. They bring their life experience to the role of parents. And so they're their own separate person, their own separate stuff, trying to parent through the lens of things that they were taught and their shame and their guilt about stuff. So thinking of it that way as well. I think it's helpful not not probably not judging people by the role they have but like the person they are

Kristin Wood - 23:11
You know what I just thought of is how closely associated this is also with the "I'm sorry's"

Ralph Andracchio - 23:21
Hell yeah,

Kristin Wood - 23:22
At least as I'm feeling like, yeah, that it's sort of like the I'm sorry, all the time can be saying I'm sorry for those of you didn't listen. How we do it way too much, can be almost the damage control to not upset anyone or feeling guilty about something that might have said or not said or done. Even little dumb things. Like I didn't hold the door for somebody. So I'm sorry. It's like damage control, so I don't feel guilt or shame. And it's funny, I'm working with a client right now who's literally working on many things, many, many things, actually. But one of the things is stop is to pay attention and catch themselves with not saying I'm sorry, so much. And it's interesting. I want to tangent I'll be done in a minute. But I think it's interesting because it's actually made them feel better about themselves, and more confident. And more like what has catching themselves and not saying that sorry. They don't need to and they're sorry for So anyway, I'm done with that tangent, but I don't know, I think it's related a little bit.

Ralph Andracchio - 24:29
It's empowering. because saying I'm sorry, feeling guilty feeling guilt and shame and apologizing when you didn't even do anything, is giving over all your power to somebody. for absolutely no reason.

Kristin Wood - 24:42
That's a good way of putting it

Ralph Andracchio - 24:43
and for somebody to stop themselves and say I don't have to say I'm sorry. It's empowering. Because you're you're stopping yourself from giving that power over.

Kristin Wood - 24:50
Yeah, that makes sense.

Ralph Andracchio - 24:51
Right? It's the smartest thing I've said all week.

Kristin Wood - 24:53
It was Yeah. Actually I love the way you put that you wrapped it up in a bow

Ralph Andracchio - 24:57
I'm glad I got it on tape because nobody's gonna believe but that's the thing again, it's about power, guilt and shame. Keep people down at the you know, keep people in a in a place of power. At the expense of the person it's it's aimed at. And then you have this this natural byproduct of it, of saying I'm sorry and apologizing for everything because you've done something to feel guilt and shame about, which nine times out of 10 You didn't and you shouldn't but you know, there it is. And, yeah, it's just this weird, vicious cycle.

Kristin Wood - 25:35
I don't think it always has to be within a construct, though. I think we create our own like in our head. You know, people aren't doing anything but we're worse we think any like, go back to what I said initially. We might have done something wrong. We somebody is upset. Something's late, that shouldn't be late, whatever it is. And it just sets the bells off with the guilt and shame so it's not that it's sometimes it's completely internal has nothing to do with what's going on. But it's about the relationship that that individual has with themselves as well as their expectations of themselves.

Ralph Andracchio - 26:16
Yeah, I mean, I catch myself doing it during the day too like little little silly. Things of like, oh, I gave that person a link on their LinkedIn posts when it should have been a celebrate so I'm like, Man, I'm feel guilty about that. I should apologize or like doing dishes or like when when Dan comes down, he's like, Oh, you're doing the dishes. I'm like, Oh, I'm sorry. Should I? Oh, you know, it's this weird like, just freakin do the dishes like there's no i overanalyze things. So mine I know it's my own psychosis that I'm explaining to everybody right now, but it's like, little things like that can pop up during the day and like you said, it's it's powerful, being able to stop yourself and say, No, there's I gave that person a like, that's absolutely appropriate and fine.

Kristin Wood - 27:10
Yeah, self talk can be helpful was helpful in so many ways. But I think it can be helpful in those instances. And I know that the clients I've worked with have found that really powerful with the whole the I'm sorry, thing of like really slowing down and like, really like, what's going on here, and a lot of times that comes from fear of upsetting others. So I think, you know, I think it's all connected

Ralph Andracchio - 27:34
How much of this is also connected to people having certain kinds of brain chemistry because I know for me, I'm self diagnosing right now. Don't do that. But I feel like I have some like high functioning anxiety where I'm like constantly fixated on little things like this. And I feel like for some people, it's easier to fall into this because they're just predisposed.

Kristin Wood - 28:01
I think with anxiety, absolutely. Yeah. I think if you have an anxious personality, and a lot of times, not all the time, that's very much coupled with insecurity within yourself. And so then the idea of doing anything wrong Yeah, sorry. i Sorry. I sorry. i Sorry. I just think I just did a little kid I sorry, I sorry. Um, you know, can can, yes, that can exacerbate it, but I don't think it like is the determining factor. Because people's anxiety plays out very, very differently. Some people's anxiety is very much a closed in and they suffer alone kind of people don't know.

Ralph Andracchio - 28:42
Yeah. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And I feel like where we're at, in this pandemic, is I feel, I can't put words to it, but I just feel in my gut, that we're turning this weird corner in terms of people's mental health. Where it's gonna get weird this year.

Kristin Wood - 29:05
Yeah, agreed, and I can't put my finger on it

Ralph Andracchio - 29:06
You know what I mean? It's just this this in the background. There's kind of this this like Spidey sense in the back of my brain. It's like, oh, things are gonna get weird before they get better this year, specifically, and I don't know why.

Kristin Wood - 29:17
Yeah, I mean, and we've discussed possible topics and some of this stuff moving forward, but yeah, I think that yeah, I could go on for days about this. So I won't but

Ralph Andracchio - 29:30
You have time you can go on now if you'd like.

Kristin Wood - 29:33
Yeah, I think it will be different. I think. I just gonna say again, this is off topic a little bit.

Ralph Andracchio - 29:43
This is the name of this episode. Off Topic with Kristin Wood.

Kristin Wood - 29:46
Maybe it isn't off the topic though. Just around COVID with the way it's affecting relationships, and ending relationships. As far as when people have differing ideas around safety of differing ideas around vaccinations have differing ideas about how you should be testing what tests you should be taking, what test is acceptable, where you should be going, and how that's had effect socially and on relationships specifically with people. And I think I saw it before but I feel like it's it's just shifting I don't know if it's different from last year, last year was kind of like everybody's in the same boat. This is it. There's no vaccination switch, you should do a period and now it's like there's all these different variables milling around and people have different ideas and thoughts and you know, for themselves and I just see it affecting people's relationships a lot and that that makes me sad because it's like one thing physical health. Okay, fine. We're probably most people are decent, if they're vaccinated if they get it most people don't get go to the hospital. But there's all these other ramifications and... yeah

Ralph Andracchio - 31:03
Do you think people are starting to separate out strata-wise, like going back to like, the, like the the mantle of the Earth and how there's different types of rocks like people are starting to sift out into I'm fully vaccinated and boosted and I'm wearing my mask and I'm like, I'm around here and then somebody who doesn't believe in vaccines but still wears a mask is over here and the other person... And it's like, we're starting to separate out into these different weird layers are like communities

Kristin Wood - 31:39
Yeah, I think we're definitely doing a whole lot of that. And I think there's like, I don't know, I'll speak on - I feel like I'm bleeding on my face. That was cute - Okay. All right. Good. Thanks. Sorry. Sorry. We're all over the place. No, I think I mean, I don't want to speak for other people though. I've had this conversation with many people have like a guilt feeling. Of the idea that it was was me that brought COVID to x place or [Kristin sneezes]

Ralph Andracchio - 32:16
Bless you.

Kristin Wood - 32:24
That I'm just feeling guilty when it's not even your fault. Like just feeling bad. If you might have been the person that was exposed and infected other people or you think you might be or you're not, you know, that's where guilt I can talk for me came up. And I knew in my head because this is what I do for a living that I didn't do anything wrong, and I didn't do anything irresponsible, but it still felt badly. If in fact, it was me that other people got sick, and everyone was okay, but it's still like it's hard to shake that and harder than like a lot of other situations. I've been like, Ah, no, this is a silly, like, it's sort of silly. It's a feeling but I also know that it doesn't make sense, but it was still there.

Ralph Andracchio - 33:14
Yes, and I think there's a distinction that's happening. We've been talking about previously before this point was kind of like, oh, I said something I should have, shouldn't have or a, you know, did something I shouldn't have and it's like a very finite ramification of it. There's a word that I'm missing but like, a result of the action. But with COVID It's like, Oh, I I might have got somebody sick, which is like has all these tendrils of possibilities that come from it, which is a little different, but you're right, it is on a on a base level. It is the same of like I know, in my logical mind, what happened and it was like, okay, not not everything I'm thinking happened actually happened and not all the ramifications that I think are going to happen happen. So it's like yeah, how can you how can you separate out the guilt and shame from the actual reality of...

Kristin Wood - 34:16
Yeah, yeah, to be honest it was tough. Yeah. Yeah. And just because, again, I don't even have confirmation that I was the one that brought COVID to this gathering. But yeah, people's lives are uprooted people are is it to me it wasn't so much around people getting really what was with one one friend because she's got some pre existing conditions. That was a little bit scary on just a general health basis, but it was also just like people have to quarantine and people can't go do like go see family or they have to be stuck in their in their place or they can't work. You know, and I just battled with it because I knew, in my logical mind, that it was not something I'd done intentionally by any means. If in fact I even was me. But I also just and also very empathic person so I guess I also feel empathy, empathy for how it's affected other people.

Ralph Andracchio - 35:14
Yeah, but also I think there's there's factors that can go into it of are you generally responsible, like your all vaxxed and boosted where your mask and like distance and all that stuff, so I mean, at some point, you have to say, Listen, I'm a pretty responsible person. I've done everything I'm supposed to do. I came out like it was it was something that was not intended nor foreseen. That happened. And I think that's a big part of it. And also the you don't get don't show up positive five seconds after you're exposed to somebody. It takes some incubation time. So even then, it's like, a lot of times we just don't know and we we take risks hanging out with people. You know, we knowingly take the risk because it's like you weigh the pros and cons of. All right. Listen, I'm I am a fairly safe person. I wear my mask everywhere I social distance. I haven't left the house in forever. You know, I'm gonna go to this party and hang out with people because I want to because I need that human interaction Yeah, you need to it's a physical like mental emotional need at this point. So I mean, that's my two cents. I mean, if you're somebody who's generally very responsible and safe and even if it you know, there is a question of who was the actual you know, patient zero, so I mean,

Kristin Wood - 36:39
Yeah, but I've had the same conversation with clients and like, this is this is kind of where I've been on a kick about it. Like, the way that COVID is affecting people's relationships, people's feelings about themselves, especially especially for people that are already struggling with some mental health issues, you know, and then it can really exacerbate it, you know, like it did last year. I mean, this is not that different.

Ralph Andracchio - 37:04
We're not on three years of this now.

Kristin Wood - 37:07
Yeah, I almost cursed in my head. I just curse in my head. Thank God sometimes I have a filter. I think when this topic comes up, I want to like scream every expletive or whatever it is. Yeah.

Ralph Andracchio - 37:23
Yeah. Well I think another saying that comes to mind about all this is assume best attentions. You know, I don't think any of us hopefully not know anybody who would knowingly harm people or like to get people sick and I feel you have to assume like if it did happen, it's like, I didn't mean like it wasn't on my list of things to do that. buy eggs, go play tennis, get people sick. You know, it's not...

Kristin Wood - 37:57
I 'm going to go to a new years eve party and just infect everyone there. Woo let me sneeze everywhere.

Ralph Andracchio - 38:01
Typhoid Mary. Yeah, and I think, I mean, I heard somebody say, eventually we're all gonna get it. I mean, it's just inevitable. You can't if you haven't gotten it already or...

Kristin Wood - 38:15
I dunno I think there's some people that maybe just their body chemistry in the way they've, their reaction to the vaccine might not. Come out, you know, but that's that's few and far between. I don't think that's the majority.

Ralph Andracchio - 38:29
Right, and like, something my mom said she went, my parents just tested positive and they're elderly. I was gonna say ancient. They don't listen to this. That's fine. my parents are in their 80s. So they're in a very high risk group. Luckily, they're fine. But, you know, they, they, they subscribe to a certain point of view about vaccines and masks. I'm not going to get into it. But you know, my mom said well, your brother your brother is fully vaccinated, boosted and he's sick. So what does that say about the vaccine and I'm like, the vaccine doesn't prevent you from getting sick. It prevents you from getting really sick and dying. And it's sometimes you are asymptomatic. And sometimes, like you said, it's like I didn't get anything I feel fine. You know, it helps you to fight it off. It's not no there's no 100% foolproof anything, and it's like, why do I have to explain that? I know we're getting off topic without guilt, but we're totally off topic, but getting getting back on back onto the on ramp to the free way. Yeah, assume best intentions. And I feel like in any situation if if there was any. If there's any doubt or question about what happened and who's responsible for it, I think assuming best intentions and saying you know if it was me, Well, I I didn't knowingly do anything or go in meaning to hurt people. So it's like, hopefully that tempers that a little bit.

Kristin Wood - 40:02
Sometimes it's not even about the other people's reactions. It's your own stuff, which goes back to just like, maybe people's tendency to easily feel guilt and shame. You know, and I don't know if I said that about myself or not but it was just might have been might have been coupled with some just feeling empathy and bad for people too like, not that not all self blame, but But I digress, but I think we've been digressing all episode We still I would love for somebody to chime in on this. Is guilt taught or is it at all taught? How does that work?

Ralph Andracchio - 40:44
I would love to know the answer to that question. Something that's a lot of these shows. We just come up with more questions and answers.

Kristin Wood - 40:50
We just talk a bunch of hmm-hmm. We don't talk BS but we talk we just we talk off the top of our heads. That's why we're all over the place if it was scripted we wouldn't be.

Ralph Andracchio - 41:02
But if it was scripted, it wouldn't be as yeah, it would be like watching the nightly news. Which I do not do. Sometimes .

Kristin Wood - 41:12
Sometimes I'll do a David Muir.

Ralph Andracchio - 41:14
Oh, ABC.

Kristin Wood - 41:15
I'm an ABC girl. But I like Lester Holt isn't that his name? I'm not opposed to him.

Ralph Andracchio - 41:20
I only know Lester Holt through Dateline NBC. I watched that I like I like murder mysteries. Oh, so good.

Kristin Wood - 41:28
They are all the same ending Ralph

Ralph Andracchio - 41:30
Not necessarily.

Kristin Wood - 41:33
Is there a zinger in there?

Ralph Andracchio - 41:32
There's sometimes there's a twist, and you don't see it coming. It's usually the boyfriend. It's always... right. 90 90% of the time, it's the boyfriend. Spoiler alert for any Dateline watchers out there. So what what can we have people walk away from from today?

Kristin Wood - 41:59
Confused

Ralph Andracchio - 42:00
Confused. Feeling confused.

Kristin Wood - 42:04
What was the topic today? I think it's important to acknowledge the feelings of of guilt and shame. But I also think that it's important to if possible, and maybe you need help doing so with professional but being able to recognize or talk to yourself about what was going on about the feeling and trying to figure out ways to sort of alleviate that and if possible, talk yourself out of it. But that may not be that simple. But the guilt is only sending you into a position of obviously self blame. Not liking yourself. It's just reinforcing that so whatever strategies people can come up with, try to keep it from going that direction or challenging that direction.

Ralph Andracchio - 42:59
Yeah, question and challenge. every chance you get. That's my - I do. I do a presentation about self talk. And that's those are my three things. Notice challenge change. Right notice that you're doing it. Challenge it with questions of like, why am I doing this? Where's this coming from? And then it's easier to change it and like put another healthy habit in that place. Right? Oh, super simple. Well, I say that as the professional...

Kristin Wood - 43:33
No, it's a nice simple way of explaining it. It's very difficult to do all three steps. Yeah,

Ralph Andracchio - 43:38
Even doing notice even noticing like, oh wow, I do that a lot. That's a great place to start if you're doing that great.

Kristin Wood - 43:47
Noticing it is one and then two is trying to do a difference. So that might mean you do it again, but you catch yourself and you do something a little bit different. You know it's and sometimes it's a ping pong between somebody use that term today with me of like, doing what you always do, and then having that new voice speak up and be like, Well, wait a minute. Maybe we shouldn't be feeling guilty. And then you're kind of having that back and forth between what I call kind of like a negative self talk and a positive self talk.

Ralph Andracchio - 44:23
And something else another question that I love and it has to I saw it on a post on Tik Tok from somebody who was like, if you want to challenge somebody who asked you a really dumb question, like trying to get a rise out of you or like maybe makes a dumb joke or something that's like, meant to offend you. The best way to kind of air quotes get back at them is just to ask them. What did you hope to accomplish with that? Right? Make people answer for it and you can do that to yourself too. Like if you find yourself getting into this pattern of like, guilty like, oh, man, I shouldn't have done that. Oh, I feel so guilty. What am I accomplishing with this

Kristin Wood - 45:07
Making yourself feel terrible, And negatively affecting yourself, that's your self image your relationship with yourself really?

Ralph Andracchio - 45:13
And that's most often that's the answer. I'm just making myself feel bad.

Kristin Wood - 45:17
Yeah, ooop I almost cursed again. I don't know why I'm having a cursing - I need to curse today.
When we sign off I'm just gonna throw a bunch of curse words around.

Ralph Andracchio - 45:26
We have to have a blue episode where we can just curse all we want. That'll be a fun one. so yeah, I think if you are somebody who is prone to feeling guilty and shameful about things that really don't warrant feeling guilty or shameful about, do what we, you know, do what we've been talking about. Question it like, Why Why am I doing this? What's the point of this? Where's this? Coming from? Is this serving a purpose? And you know, just noticing it as a great first step, but then being able to say, How can I do this differently next time I'm going to catch myself and I'm going to do X, adding the little like we said in the last episode, little tiny steps that move you down the field. That's all you got. No big no big jumps, and connect with other people about it to Don't keep it to yourself. I think guilt and shame, love. They separate us and they make us feel they're quiet and they separate. And they make us feel alone. So the more you can connect with other people that you trust and care about and say, Oh, I have this, you know, can I talk to you about this or I'm doing this thing? It's just nice to talk it out with somebody.

Kristin Wood - 46:37
Absolutely. Yeah, I love the way you summed that all up.

Ralph Andracchio - 46:40
That's one of my superpowers. I'm Sum Up Man. I am the most boring X-Man ever. My superpower is I just sum stuff up. Hey, you guys go into battle today. Not you Sum Up Guy. We don't we'll we'll talk to you afterwards about it. You can sum it up for us.

Kristin Wood - 46:56
That's all right. I like it. You're my favorite superhero.

Ralph Andracchio - 47:00
Oh, you're my favorite. What would your superpower be if you were an X-Man?

Kristin Wood 0 47:06
I'd like to be an invisible fly on the wall because I'm super nosy and I want to be able to go in and see what's going on with people. I want to go see what's going on

Ralph Andracchio - 47:14
You would be like what's her face and the fantastic Sue Storm from Fantastic Four. She can turn visible and she can make forcefields

Kristin Wood - 47:24
Okay, yeah, that's me. Yup.

Ralph Andracchio - 47:26
Okay. And she can fly I believe.

Kristin Wood - 47:27
I love that too. Let's do it.

Ralph Andracchio - 47:29
Done. All right, great. Next week. It's all about superheroes. Awesome. We hopefully we plumb the depths of guilt and shame and you came out the other side with something you can use. Our contact information is on our website. So look at this... look at the show notes for this episode and any other one you can find out ways to get in touch with us. Excellent. We're going to finish our wine. Yes. We'll see y'all next time. Thanks, everybody. Bye

[OUTRO MUSIC PLAYS AND FADES] - 48:06

END OF EPISODE - 48:16

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

People on this episode

Kristin Wood, LCSW

Co-host

Ralph Andracchio, CEG, PPC

Co-host